148. Pomona College - Inside the Admissions Office: Expert Insights, Tips, and Advice - Playback Wednesdays

Occidental College

John:

Welcome to the CAPP, the College Admissions Process podcast. I am your host, John Durante, and it gives me great pleasure to introduce to you today Robin Hamilton, who's the Senior Associate Dean of Admission and Director of Recruitment and Equity, and by the way, an alum from 2008 at Occidental College. Robin, thank you so much for being here today. How are you?

Robin Hamilton:

I'm great, thank you for having me. Excited to talk about Occidental.

John:

I'm excited as well. I've had a lot of people reach out to me saying, we want more schools from California. So I'm really looking forward to this conversation. So let's just start, Robin, by asking, can you provide an overview of Occidental College's mission and educational philosophy and how it differentiates itself from other colleges and universities?

Robin Hamilton:

Yeah, I would love to. So, Occidental or Oxy, as you will hear me refer to it as, is kind of our shorthand. Our mission is really anchored in kind of four cornerstones. So, excellence, equity, community, and service. In terms of our educational philosophy, we are very much rooted in the traditional liberal arts and believe that there are lots of different ways to answer questions and solve problems and believe that our discipline should be as interconnected as possible. But also uniquely to Oxy is really our location here in Los Angeles. It allows us to create unparalleled learning opportunities for our students and deep engagement with community leaders, civic leaders, and industry partners. And so it's important that our location, our size, our academic excellence altogether, I think, differentiate us. We know that there are many schools in large cities, but we see that most of those campuses are maybe 10 times bigger than Oxy. We know there are lots of liberal arts colleges out there, but they often find themselves in more rural or more suburban environments. And so particularly that location with the liberal arts, the size, I think is what distinguishes our work.

John:

Well, as you mentioned, a private liberal arts school with four cornerstones, excellence, equity, community, and service. And by the way, you do a great job with all of that and more because I read recently that your retention rate, that's the one year retention rate after freshman year in terms of the number of students that come back is at an astonishing 92%. The national average these days is at about 70%, Oxy is at 92. So that's a testament to the great work that you do in admission to make sure you get the right students on your campus, but also what you do as a community to make students comfortable wanting to return. So we appreciate that. And that's by the way, gonna lead me to the next question, which is about student life. Students always reach out and ask me to ask more questions about, you know, we really wanna know about the social life, the student life. So what can you share about life on and off campus, especially since you're an alum yourself, I'm sure there's plenty of things that you could shed light on for our students and parents listening.

Robin Hamilton:

Absolutely, student life and just the student experience is so important. We know that our students are coming of age in a time that's really going to require a lot of resiliency and courage and we're working towards a model of education and a residential experience that supports students personal growth and well-being and so a lot of that comes with the things they do outside the classroom and the ways that they can engage. So I would certainly describe our kind of student life on and off campus as vibrant. Our students are very connected and engaged with the world around them. I think Oxy students, there certainly can be that really wonderful college bubble, but our students are so connected to the world around them. You can be on campus and have the student government and work for the radio station and be involved as a resident advisor living on campus. But you can also walk two blocks off campus and be in a large commercial area in a neighborhood in Los Angeles and feel like you're having an experience that's wholly separate from your college experience. And so, I think that combination is really neat. But our students do anything and everything. About a quarter of our students are varsity athletes on campus. We have students that work at local literacy centers that attend neighborhood council meetings. They're also going to the beach. They're going to concerts in the local area. They're taking advantage of other cultural opportunities. We are about a mile and a half from a metro stop. So contrary to popular belief, there is public transit in Los Angeles.

John:

Hehehe

Robin Meryl:

not quite what's offered in a few other cities, but we do have it and our students utilize it. We're three stops from downtown. Students can pop into Chinatown, into the Arts District. They can go to an LA Opera performance or an exhibit at the Broad Museum, a jazz night on the lawn, things like that are really accessible. So it's a neat combination. I really think the best of both worlds that if you are a student that wants a smaller community and wants a little bit more of that intimate environment, you can start a club organization that really speaks to your interests, whether it's like reading murder mystery book clubs or starting a political organization, or you can be out in the city, and most of our students do both.

John:

Being in the city of LA, obviously it affords the students internship opportunities and plenty of cultural opportunities that you touched upon. I was curious though, in terms of it being a commuter school on the weekends, do students stay on campus or do many run home on the weekends?

Robin Hamilton:

Yeah, so we are not a commuter school at all. So only about 35 percent of our students come from California

John:

Wow.

Robin Hamilton:

and that is split up kind of all throughout the state of California. So most of our students don't really have the opportunity to head home on the weekends. They're not that close even if they're in California. They may be a four or five, six hour drive and so our students are really here. We are a residential campus. We require our students to live on campus for three years. Most of them live on campus as seniors as well, or live kind of right in the neighborhood around campus. So they're here. And so it doesn't mean they're sticking on campus. They may be hanging out during the day or the evening with friends or with their sports team or their club organization to adventure into the city of LA. But there's also events happening on campus. There are speakers, there are concerts, there are movie nights. We have a really amazing gaming space on campus. So students have things to do here and in LA on the weekends.

John:

It sounds awesome and I appreciate you talking about how 35% of your students are from California but not all from the LA area. 

Robin Hamilton:

Right.

John:

Like you said, they might be four, six or more hours away from home. So that means that 65% obviously are from out of state.  The students are there on campus, thriving, having a great time.  And again, I point back to that 92% retention rate. So let's get into the admissions process itself. What is Oxy's approach to the admissions process, particularly in terms of the criteria, in fact, considered when reviewing applications?

Robin Hamilton:

Yeah, so I think it's important to even just start with our acceptance rate. It usually hovers just below 40%, which means Oxy is certainly a selective place, very selective by some standards, but it's not a place that is denying nine out of 10 students. Our student population that applies to our application pool is incredibly self-selected. So it's pretty rare that we're going through the application process and reading a student that we don't think is academically prepared for Oxy. So when we're actually making decisions, certainly that academic preparation is where we start. We ask ourselves, is the student prepared to be successful at OXIE? Like I said, most of the time the answer is yes. If the answer is no, that's pretty much where the review ends. We really are looking for students that we know can hit the ground running. Doesn't mean there isn't gonna be academic support for you and that college can't be hard, but if a student is not prepared, we really kind of end the review there. But most of our students are prepared. And so then we're looking at how they challenge themselves. So we're looking for students that are intellectually curious, that are passionate about learning. And that can be traditional things that we think of, like an honors class or an AP class, maybe a student's in an IP program. It can also mean doubling up on a science that's particularly exciting to them, finding a community college class nearby that's exciting to them, maybe writing their essay about a particular research topic that really interests them. So finding that intellectual spark in addition to taking five classes in the kind of the academic areas that we're looking

John:

Hehehe

Robin Hamilton:

for every single year and challenging yourself within your environment. We are test optional and will remain so indefinitely. So certainly if students take tests, they can submit them, but they don't have to. We're also a writing intensive place. And so that's another place where not only we learn about the student and who you are and what your hopes are for the future. at OXIE, but also we kind of understand how you learn through writing and how you communicate. And then your faculty or your teacher recommendations are also important for us to kind of understand those academic habits of mind, the ability to push through challenges, because we know college isn't always going to be a breeze and many of our students have had a really successful high school career and college might be the first time that you're struggling, and so it's important that we also see that students kind of have those habits of mind that will prepare them. Outside of all that academic prep, as we were just talking about, our students are active, they're engaged, they're very community oriented. I would say our students are very action oriented. They are looking for ways to apply what they're doing in the classroom to the work that they may find themselves doing after Oxy. And so that engagement in extracurricular activities is important. We have no hierarchy or list of things that you have to have done. So it truly, truly should be, and I know. All admission counselors say this, and not everyone believes this, but it truly should be something that you want to be doing, that you're excited to be doing. I think it just makes it ring more true and authentic. But it also includes things like family responsibilities. It includes things like having a job, having dependents. All of that also still can demonstrate a student's willingness to engage in community, to develop responsibility and leadership skills. And then finally, it's really kind of who you are as a person. We are a campus of 2,000 students. We are small by design. We are intentional with who we bring into our community. And so again, looking for students that want to engage, that are community oriented, that have that academic spark, that are looking to make an impact. I think that's something that is a real commonality throughout our students. We look for that in the writing that students send us as well.

John:

Well, I appreciate that overview and I love how you talked about how the acceptance rate is under 40%. Obviously you're a selective school, but I also appreciate what you talked about. You look at the academics first. If you look at the transcript, for example, and determine that a student can't handle the work. then the review ends there. And I love that honesty because as admissions representatives, you're looking to make sure that the students can handle the work on your campus. And so looking at that transcript to see the ramps that they built over four years of high school, the rigor of the courses that they selected or not, you're looking at that along with their grades to determine whether or not they can handle the work at Oxy. Obviously if they can't, because of past academic performance, it wouldn't be right for you to accept a student. and frankly set them up for trouble. So I really appreciate that. And you spoke about a lot of things in terms of your overall application, and I wanna unpackage it all one by one. So let's just start with the average profile. What is the average profile of the current freshman class? Of course, in terms of GPA, and I know you mentioned that your test optional, but for the test that you do take, what is that mid 50% when it comes to SAT or ACT scores? And if a student does in fact fall a little bit lower than that mid 50%, What are some of the things that they can do to enhance their overall application?

Robin Hamilton:

Yeah, so for our incoming class, and this is actually will be updated in about six weeks, but for our most recent incoming class, in terms of testing, our middle 50% for the SAT for the critical reading score was between 690 and 750. And then for the math score, it's between 680 and 760. For those students taking an ACT, our middle 50% for the composite was 31 to a 34. So those are pretty high. I always want to caution that we are now in the land of test optional opportunities. And so we expect to see these numbers and we have the last few years, but continue to go up. See my guests, students are self-selecting who is sending their SATs and ACT scores. And so we don't list these as to say, this is what you must have. We list these because students ask and they want to know, and they want to have maybe a goal to set for themselves. But we also know that we certainly have students that don't take tests at all, that take exams and are scoring well below these scores. And that doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't prepared to be successful at Oxy. And so we welcome students to not submit any testing, if that's what makes sense for them. I would say, as a good rule of thumb, look at those middle 50%. And if you kind of fall within that, that's probably a really good indication that sending a score is probably going to either be neutral or beneficial to your application, at least at Oxy. If your scores are below that at Oxy again, I would recommend not sending your scores. Because we do take such a holistic approach, we understand there are so many different ways, as I kind of mentioned in my previous answer, to evaluate your academic preparation. We don't need those test scores. We're not going to make any assumptions about students, about whether or not they took them or not, if we don't see them. We have lots of other ways to evaluate a student's preparation and so testing should really be a personal decision that is set between you and maybe a guidance counselor or a parent to kind of figure out if that's something that's important to you.  And then we have a median GPA. It's about 3.75 for students that enrolled at Oxy.  The admit is probably a little bit higher than that. Again, GPA, I think, is probably even harder. because GPAs means so many different things across so many different schools. And so I always tell students, pull up your transcript, look at it, is it mostly A's? That's what we're looking for. Like eyeballing your transcript, is it mostly A's? Great, you are probably in the ballpark, let's get moving.

John:

So a median GPA of 3.75, you talked about the test being a 690 to a 750 on the reading end of the SAT. With the math end, it's between a 680 and a 760, and of course the ACT at 31 to a 34. That's your mid-50%, which you mentioned. The mid-50% is really skewed because the only students that are submitting are students that in fact are adding their tests to their applications. So it leads me to the next question, which is... because a lot of people, by the way, think that the test optional nature of college admission is a myth. So can you tell us the percentage of students that apply without submitting their test scores? But more importantly, the percentage of students that are accepted that haven't submitted test scores.

Robin Hamilton:

Yes, so for those numbers that I just gave you and that's kind of the best, kind of most complete applicant pool, 39% of our students who enrolled submitted test scores and we've seen that pretty consistently over the last few years. It really is kind of a 60% not 40% submitting. So we don't see that really changing from application to enrollment so we're not seeing that. Only 40% are applying with test scores, but then 80% of the students that are admitted have them. We really don't see that. So it truly is kind of an even spread between application and enrollment.

John:

Well, I appreciate that insight because if you look at your mid 50, of course, earlier we said it's skewed, right? It's hard and it used to be because only students that are happy with their scores are submitting as opposed to everyone having to submit. But also the fact that only 39% submitted and 61% did not. So that's 61% of your class did not submit test scores. In fact, explaining that the test optional nature of your process is for real. So that's great insight. You mentioned the GPA, so I was just curious, in terms of the GPA given to you on the transcript. Is that the GPA that you look at or do you, is that the GPA that you look at or do you recalculate using your own metrics?

Robin Hamilton:

Great question. So we will do a little bit of both. So traditionally for the selection process, we are looking at what the school gives us because it's oftentimes the most accurate understanding of the context of the school, how you are performing within the resources available to you and the expectations set by the teachers and the administration there. So we will spend a lot of time with that GPA. Some schools don't calculate GPAs and we see really significant weighting. So sometimes we will recalculate if we believe this is just gonna really screw numbers or it doesn't make sense within our process. But ideally we are really looking at a weighted GPA and if a school does have rank, we're looking at a weighted rank. Those are the things that we're looking at for selection. When we report out, so when we talk about that 3.75 number, we do unweight and recalculate all the GPAs for our own reporting. So it is a little misleading because that 3.75, it's out of four, even though most of our students, we see GPAs well above that and out of numbers much above four.

John:

Well, of course, we appreciate the insight. And what about demonstrated interest? What are some of the things that students do to demonstrate their interest in Oxy and is that something that comes into your overall review process at any point in time?

Robin Hamilton:

Yeah, it's something that we have newly begun looking at. And I would say more than demonstrated interest, it's demonstrated disinterest for us.  We see that in most cases, our students have done something to connect with us. They've come to campus and visited. They've popped into a high school visit when we've traveled to visit their area. They've come to a college fair. And so most students have done something. And we aren't expecting students to go above and beyond. And We also certainly have different expectations from our student that maybe is at a high school around the corner versus a student across the country. We understand that there are different limitations and resource constrictions that mean maybe you're not going to be able to visit campus or maybe you're not able to visit campus until you've been admitted to certain campuses. But there are also ways for us to kind of look and see like this kid's never been to our website. They've never attended a virtual event. We've visited their high school three times in the last year. They've never shown up. And so. Oftentimes it's that sort of disinterest that we see that is more impactful when we're looking at students and deciding we kind of have to make those final decisions.

John:

Well, I appreciate you sharing that and you're the first admissions representative, by the way, who talked about demonstrated disinterest.  And I love that because if you see that a student is not engaging in your emails, and what I mean by that is not only opening it, but if there are links, I know that you have ways to track if they open the link, how much time they engage with the link, if they visited, whether it's at a local college fair or at their high school, these are things that students, you should do it. You should do it regardless of whether a rep says that they track it or not. You should do it. Number one for your own research so that you really get a feel whether or not the school is the right fit for you. But again, Robin, I appreciate you talking about demonstrated disinterest. And so if you see a student who frankly is not interested, you know, you're going to probably put them in the maybe or worse than no piles. So that's great insight. And so digging deeper in terms of your overall application process. When reviewing applications from various high schools from throughout the country, how do you take into account when one student's school may offer, for example, 20 AP courses, while another may only offer five? So how does that look when you're comparing applicants?

Robin Hamilton:

Yes, I know this is always a big concern for students and families or they have friends at other schools that are going through the process and wondering how they're going to stack up. I always try to remind students and parents when I'm talking to them to put this kind of question in the box of things you really can't control and know that that's why you have professional admission counselors that we spend our whole year getting to know students, getting to know your counselors and getting to know your high school. That's why we have. territory managers. We are going to worry about how to dig in and understand the context of students' high school and why a GPA might look really different from one student that's admitted to another. We spend time learning about these schools. And so when we think about a student that has challenged themselves, that has prepared themselves, we've always also said that within the context of their environment, within the resources available to them. And that can also extend even beyond a school, but to a community, to a home situation, if they again have work, family responsibilities, dependents, that can also impact their ability to pursue rigor or pursue some of the extracurricular activities and things like that. So if you go to a school that has 30 AP classes, awesome. You're gonna be wonderfully prepared, assuming that you actually take advantage of them. So. We may have a student that's at a school taking five AP classes where 30 are available and a student at a school where five AP classes are available and they took all five. We're going to review those students really differently because we are thinking about what options did you have, what opportunities were available and how did you push yourself. So really students should also think about what's available to them and am I challenging myself in the right way to showcase my skills and talents and take advantage of that but Don't worry if your school doesn't waive grades or your friend down the street goes to a school that has an IB program. Don't let that be something that really weighs on you. Think about what I can do to put my best foot forward based on what's available to me.

John:

Well, I appreciate that. It's looking at your own high school and asking yourself, what's available to me and how am I challenging myself? So stop worrying about your friend who's at the school over in the next town or whatever. Look at what your school offers and whether or not you're building ramps and challenging yourself over four years of high school. So we appreciate that. What are you looking for from a student's activity sheet and does that change based on the student's intended major?

Robin Hamilton:

Well, and so the second part, it does not necessarily change based on a student's intended major. There certainly are some majors that maybe lend themselves to having extracurricular activities that really line up. We have a wonderful Diplomacy and World Affairs major at Oxy. We certainly see students that have been a part of Model UN, but it is by no means a prerequisite. Same with students that are interested in computer science. If they didn't have AP computer science at their high school, we're not going to expect to have seen it taken. Even if they did, we're not going to expect that it's something that's taken. But certainly we do see students that sometimes really align their extra-curricular activities with their academic interests, and that's wonderful, but not required. What we're looking for, again, kind of just depends on what a student's interested in. I try to remind students that they don't have to be everything to every college they apply to. We talk a lot, or you hear a lot about, oh, well, you want to be a well-rounded student. Sometimes, if that authentically comes naturally to you, if you're a student that really enjoys playing on the sports team and also being in the choir and also having a part-time job, that's wonderful. But maybe you're a really high-level athlete. You're being recruited by the college that you're applying to, and you're spending four to six hours a day at practice. That's probably gonna really limit your other opportunities. But that's also gonna communicate to us a level of commitment, of responsibility. You likely have gained a leadership role in that position. And we can find someone else that plays in the band or is in the choir or has that job. And so, It's always a reminder to students that we are creating a class at Oxy of 534 other students. And so you don't have to fill every single gap that we're looking for. So I think authenticity in terms of choosing the activities you're interested in, ways that you can demonstrate responsibility and leadership are always helpful. And certainly some longevity in activities is always helpful.

John:

Well, I appreciate how you talk about that. There's no prerequisite in terms of the extracurricular activities, but that you want to see what the students' interests are outside of the classroom. Like you said earlier, you're looking at the transcript to determine whether or not a student can handle the academic role at Oxy. And I would imagine and tell me if I'm wrong, you're looking at the activity sheet to also try to get an idea of the type of student, the type of roommate, the type of community member that the student is going to be. Is that right, Robin?

Robin Hamilton:

Exactly, yes. We again are a small school on purpose and there are a lot of opportunities and so we need folks to run the radio station and to be on the sports teams and to be involved in community service or community engagement programs. And so yeah, we're looking for students that are going to engage and I think even in these examples we always talk about these very extroverted activities. There are also ways for those students that maybe spend less time on a team sport or a club sport or something. focus more on something more introverted, and that's also welcomed as well. We have students that are gamers, students that have been writing their own novels, students that are involved in a book club online or other online communities, and that's okay as well. There's lots of different ways to engage. You don't have to be in all of the kind of extroverted, back of the year book activities that we think of.

John:

Well, that's awesome. And you spoke earlier about showing responsibility, leadership, but also consistency. Many times students wake up in junior year and they say, Oh, Oh boy, I have to do college applications. I haven't been involved in anything. And all of a sudden in junior year, they're in 10 activities when they had very little prior.  Admissions representatives can see right through it. So it's very important for students to start early, get involved, and stay involved.  Try to show some consistency. We've heard many times in the podcast, it's quality over quantity. So we appreciate that Robin. Another big piece is the cost of attending colleges. So the cost is clearly a major consideration for many students and their parents. Where can your net price calculator be found and how accurate is it regarding overall costs and merit aid?

Robin Hamilton:

So our net price calculator can be found on our admission website. One of our main headers is cost and financial aid. It is right on that top level page. We update it every year, usually towards the end of the summer. So I tell students kind of after that common application opens, that's about the time that net price calculator gets recalibrated to new costs and prices. So that's a good time to start looking at it. And also remind students and parents that the better and more accurate information you put in, the better and more accurate information you can put in. out. But I think it does a pretty good job of really replicating how we package students. Our Net Price Calculator only considers need-based aid. We do have a small merit aid program or merit scholarship program, but that is not considered in the Net Price Calculator. And purposely again, as I mentioned, it's a small program. Our merit scholarships don't cover full tuition or really anything that close to it. So we want students to really be thinking, assuming I get no merit aid, is this a place that's affordable? Can my student and family afford to come to OXI next year? We are a place that meets 100% of demonstrated need. We cap loans. We have about 17% of our students who are Pell eligible students. And so we certainly see that OXI is an affordable option for most families, but we do want it to be a consideration and not something that students think about. in March when they get the acceptance letter and then flip to the next page and are like, oh my gosh, what does it cost to go here? We hope that it's something that students and families are considering throughout the process and having realistic and sometimes difficult conversations with students.

John:

Well, I always put the Office of Undergraduate Admission in the show notes. Robin, if there are any other links related to your net price calculator or anything else, just send them to me. And of course we'll make them available to the students and parents in the show notes. And can you explain what about opportunities for students that may have had an IEP while in high school? What programs do you have in place in terms of helping them to continue to be successful once they're on your campus?

Robin Hamilton:

Yeah, we have a wonderful Office of Disability Services that works with students that need support around learning or have physical disabilities and need support around residential life, navigating classes and campus. We encourage our students to meet with those folks, even as prospective students, because that can be really impactful on how a student learns and how successful they can be. And so understanding. their own needs, talking with our offices to understand how would that be translated to a college environment? Because often at times it can be pretty different than a high school environment. And also getting the student in the habit of advocating for themselves. That's oftentimes the biggest transition. In high school, you are a minor. It is all sort of run through your parents and the school. And you're going to show up on the first day of college and if you need additional educational support, no one's going to know unless you say something. And so that is oftentimes the biggest transition. students. And so we encourage that to be a part of the conversations of folks you have on campus before you make a decision. Our Disability Services office is always welcome to have those conversations. And also students even that don't have IEPs, I think making it less stigmatized and more, I don't know, more accepted I would say for students to ask for help. our Disability Services office in conjunction with our tutoring services and our library. Also just run workshops on time management, note taking, study skills. Again, a lot of our students were really successful in high school and maybe didn't have to develop those skills in the same way that they might in college. And so oftentimes our students that have IEPs are a little bit of a step ahead. They know what their needs are, they know how to study, they know what they need to do. And so they head into the office prepared and it takes those other students that are maybe running into a challenge for the first time a little bit longer to stop by the office and say, hmm, what are the resources here that might work for me? So everything from note taking, transcribing, extra time on tests, quiet spaces, lots of different ways that we can support students.

John:

I appreciate how you said how students that did have an IEP while in high school, they know how to advocate for themselves. Most of them know what it is that they need help with, whether it's note taking, extra time on an exam or what have you. But it's the students that perhaps didn't have it in high school, they need to learn, like the IEP students in high school, how to advocate for themselves once they're on your campus. So it doesn't matter whether you had an IEP in high school or not. It's just knowing the resources available to every student to make sure that every student continues to be successful. once they're on your campus. Robin, this has been a phenomenal conversation. Before I get to my last question, I just have to ask, is there a question that I didn't ask today that you wish I had, or is there a topic that didn't come up in the conversation that you'd like to share with us now?

Robin Hamilton:

Yeah, I think one thing when talking about Oxy that hasn't really come up today, but is something that is really inextricable from a student experience is our focus on equity and justice. And it certainly is in our mission statement. But I think it's something that is lived throughout our classrooms, throughout your residential experiences, in your clubs and organizations. And so we ask students about that on the application. We ask them to sort of talk about living amongst diversity and how they think they contribute to that. How do they value that? Because it is going to be something that they're going to be challenged to really explore and understand. Oxy is a place that builds a lot of trust amongst our tight-knit community, but also really pushes back and wants students to investigate the systems around them. And so I think as a student and as a parent, you are kind of preparing your student to come in and be confronted and to be asked difficult questions, but know that it comes from a place of trust and learning and growth. And it can. I think a really exciting academic environment that is really rooted in those values of equity and justice across campus.

John:

Well, I appreciate you talking about equity and justice across campus. And of course, that is part of your mission statement and students are going to be asked about it. So perhaps it's something that students should consider as an essay topic, if you will. This is something that's very important to Oxy. So students, you know, a little bit of inside information there from Robin. Robin, this has been awesome. Thank you so much. Unfortunately, it does lead us to the last question, which is, what are your top three pieces of advice that you would provide a student and their parents getting ready for the college admissions process.

Robin Hamilton:

Yeah, my first one, I mean my first two I think are connected, but for the student and the parent, I think for the student, and I've heard another admission counselor say this and I just think it's so right, the idea of keeping your eyes on your own paper. This is a really personal decision. It's an important decision. I'm not going to tell you what's the most important decision you will make throughout your life, but it is one of your first adult decisions. And so... what your best friend is doing or your cousin did before you or mom and dad did is not material to this process. What's material to this process is you authentically researching schools, authentically putting yourself forward in that application and really understanding what you need to be successful in a college environment. And so not worrying about where everyone else is going or how they're applying or when they applied, but really focusing on what's important to me. And I think that extends kind of my second piece to parents as well, that your students' college choice, their college options, where they're going shouldn't be dinner party conversation. It shouldn't be a water cooler conversation. It really should be a conversation you have within your family and with your student. And this is a private discussion. It doesn't mean you can't seek out help or ask for resources and talk to parents that have been through it, but really allow your student to guide this process and keep it with them and keep it within your... your family. And then I think my last piece of advice is when you can't have fun with it, this is an opportunity to really kind of shout from the rooftops all the amazing work you've put in throughout high school, all the classes you've taken and the late nights and the studying and the practices. And so be excited about who you are and what you're putting forward and just know that you are going to end up somewhere really wonderful.

John:

Well, that's awesome. I particularly love how you talked about keeping your eyes on your own paper. Because as you know, there's over 4,000 colleges and universities throughout the United States alone. There's definitely more than one school for every student, but not every school is for every student. So like you said, stop worrying about where your friends are going. Don't worry about where mom and dad went. Stop worrying about the sticker on the back of the SUV. It really is important for you to research many schools and determine what's best for you. And there's no one right answer. So try to enjoy it. It's a fun thing. I remember doing it with my own family.  It actually brought us together. We enjoyed the visits. We enjoyed the conversations. And that's what I wish for everyone out there. Robin, this was awesome. You're awesome. I'm so glad that I had you on the podcast and I do hope to have you again. Thank you so much.

Robin Hamilton:

Thank you, it's been wonderful.

John:

Take care everyone and good luck with your college search. Bye bye.

Robin Meryl:

Good luck.